Carol,

You're still not getting my point! How can you guarantee that
everyone who pulls clues off the internet has one of your workshops
under their belt. Everyone keeps talking about their own personal
safety procedures and that's great, but you're missing what I'm
getting at.

Let me draw an analogy. If this site were dedicated to some form of
sports hunting and our dialogue concentrated on different places
where the hunting was good, we'd be pretty much protected from
liability (unless we advocate breaking the law) since anyone who
wants to hunt almost always has to take a hunter safety course which
includes some wilderness survival and safety tips. Therefore, they
should know better.

There's no qualifications to go letterboxing. There's nothing to
stop a totally inexperienced person who basically doesn't know enough
to realize how little he knows from striking out, printout in hand,
into the woods and a situation he can't handle. Can you be sure that
he's going to read through this whole list and get every piece of
your good advice before he sets out? Why do you think that product
labels are so packed with instruction and warnings.

I'm sure that all of the dedicated letterboxers are no fools when it
comes to how to conduct themselves in the woods. Something as
simple as stating estimated travel time should be possible without
spilling the beans.

For experienced people, it's sometimes a hassle to deal with rules
and regulations that are meant for less experienced people. However,
the slight inconvenience of adding some extra details to the clues is
a lot better than having to have a qualification course and passwords
to access the clues.

forester



--- In letterbox-usa@y..., cstearns@n... wrote:
> You should see the "junk" in my backpack. If I ever get stuck on
the
> trail we are in great shape. I think this is especially important
> when you hike with kids. They feel temp changes, wetness, cold, and
> always hunger worse than adults. We keep a spare sweatshirt, my
size
> its o.k. if its huge and warm on him. Dried fruit, trail mix ,fruit
> by the foot snacks are all great in the backpack. I have a full
first
> aid kit which was a gift from my daughter. Wouldn't you know the
> first hike with it one of the kids fell and got scraped up. We had
> clean bandaged knees in no time and the patient loved holding the
> kits and seeing all the cool stuff inside while I fixed the knees.
> The cell phone and kids knowing how to use it are great too.
> Of course I carry things for letterbox firstaid too, spare bags a
box
> whatever I have extra at the time.
> When I do workshops for kids we always cover the safety side of
> letterboxing. Thanks to forester for bringing up the topic again so
> we keep it fresh in our mind. Leader of the Pack - Carol

Real good points by all, but really sad if the truth be told.

I am working on a disclaimer to put on my clues. Goes something like this.

CAUTION: Reading the following clues and attempting to find my letterbox is
dangerous and could result in mild headaches, sneezing, drowsiness, sore
throat, nose bleeds, loss of hearing, loss of sight, loss of limb or limbs,
injuries due to animal bite, insect bite, falling rocks, falling limbs,
falling man made devices from the sky, escape convicts, rapist and child
molesters, brain damage, fetal damage, genetic damage, sexual dysfunction,
loss of appetite and or death.


Or I might just keep it simple with this one.


CAUTION: Attempting to find one of the following letterboxes will more than
likely result in your DEATH. YOU SURELY WILL DIE!!!!



Okay, still a bit rough on the edges but I'm getting close!



Glenn



CAUTION: I really hope I haven't offended anyone. If I have take heart. Soon
their will be laws to protect people like you from people like me.




----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 10:18 AM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Here here to Safety


> Carol,
>
> You're still not getting my point! How can you guarantee that
> everyone who pulls clues off the internet has one of your workshops
> under their belt. Everyone keeps talking about their own personal
> safety procedures and that's great, but you're missing what I'm
> getting at.
>
> Let me draw an analogy. If this site were dedicated to some form of
> sports hunting and our dialogue concentrated on different places
> where the hunting was good, we'd be pretty much protected from
> liability (unless we advocate breaking the law) since anyone who
> wants to hunt almost always has to take a hunter safety course which
> includes some wilderness survival and safety tips. Therefore, they
> should know better.
>
> There's no qualifications to go letterboxing. There's nothing to
> stop a totally inexperienced person who basically doesn't know enough
> to realize how little he knows from striking out, printout in hand,
> into the woods and a situation he can't handle. Can you be sure that
> he's going to read through this whole list and get every piece of
> your good advice before he sets out? Why do you think that product
> labels are so packed with instruction and warnings.
>
> I'm sure that all of the dedicated letterboxers are no fools when it
> comes to how to conduct themselves in the woods. Something as
> simple as stating estimated travel time should be possible without
> spilling the beans.
>
> For experienced people, it's sometimes a hassle to deal with rules
> and regulations that are meant for less experienced people. However,
> the slight inconvenience of adding some extra details to the clues is
> a lot better than having to have a qualification course and passwords
> to access the clues.
>
> forester
>
>
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@y..., cstearns@n... wrote:
> > You should see the "junk" in my backpack. If I ever get stuck on
> the
> > trail we are in great shape. I think this is especially important
> > when you hike with kids. They feel temp changes, wetness, cold, and
> > always hunger worse than adults. We keep a spare sweatshirt, my
> size
> > its o.k. if its huge and warm on him. Dried fruit, trail mix ,fruit
> > by the foot snacks are all great in the backpack. I have a full
> first
> > aid kit which was a gift from my daughter. Wouldn't you know the
> > first hike with it one of the kids fell and got scraped up. We had
> > clean bandaged knees in no time and the patient loved holding the
> > kits and seeing all the cool stuff inside while I fixed the knees.
> > The cell phone and kids knowing how to use it are great too.
> > Of course I carry things for letterbox firstaid too, spare bags a
> box
> > whatever I have extra at the time.
> > When I do workshops for kids we always cover the safety side of
> > letterboxing. Thanks to forester for bringing up the topic again so
> > we keep it fresh in our mind. Leader of the Pack - Carol
>
>

I have noticed that some disclaimers are starting to get longer than the clues
themselves.
-Todd


Glenn wrote:

> Real good points by all, but really sad if the truth be told.
>
> I am working on a disclaimer to put on my clues. Goes something like this.
>
> CAUTION: Reading the following clues and attempting to find my letterbox is
> dangerous and could result in mild headaches, sneezing, drowsiness, sore
> throat, nose bleeds, loss of hearing, loss of sight, loss of limb or limbs,
> injuries due to animal bite, insect bite, falling rocks, falling limbs,
> falling man made devices from the sky, escape convicts, rapist and child
> molesters, brain damage, fetal damage, genetic damage, sexual dysfunction,
> loss of appetite and or death.
>
> Or I might just keep it simple with this one.
>
> CAUTION: Attempting to find one of the following letterboxes will more than
> likely result in your DEATH. YOU SURELY WILL DIE!!!!
>
> Okay, still a bit rough on the edges but I'm getting close!
>
> Glenn
>
> CAUTION: I really hope I haven't offended anyone. If I have take heart. Soon
> their will be laws to protect people like you from people like me.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 10:18 AM
> Subject: [LbNA] Re: Here here to Safety
>
> > Carol,
> >
> > You're still not getting my point! How can you guarantee that
> > everyone who pulls clues off the internet has one of your workshops
> > under their belt. Everyone keeps talking about their own personal
> > safety procedures and that's great, but you're missing what I'm
> > getting at.
> >
> > Let me draw an analogy. If this site were dedicated to some form of
> > sports hunting and our dialogue concentrated on different places
> > where the hunting was good, we'd be pretty much protected from
> > liability (unless we advocate breaking the law) since anyone who
> > wants to hunt almost always has to take a hunter safety course which
> > includes some wilderness survival and safety tips. Therefore, they
> > should know better.
> >
> > There's no qualifications to go letterboxing. There's nothing to
> > stop a totally inexperienced person who basically doesn't know enough
> > to realize how little he knows from striking out, printout in hand,
> > into the woods and a situation he can't handle. Can you be sure that
> > he's going to read through this whole list and get every piece of
> > your good advice before he sets out? Why do you think that product
> > labels are so packed with instruction and warnings.
> >
> > I'm sure that all of the dedicated letterboxers are no fools when it
> > comes to how to conduct themselves in the woods. Something as
> > simple as stating estimated travel time should be possible without
> > spilling the beans.
> >
> > For experienced people, it's sometimes a hassle to deal with rules
> > and regulations that are meant for less experienced people. However,
> > the slight inconvenience of adding some extra details to the clues is
> > a lot better than having to have a qualification course and passwords
> > to access the clues.
> >
> > forester
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In letterbox-usa@y..., cstearns@n... wrote:
> > > You should see the "junk" in my backpack. If I ever get stuck on
> > the
> > > trail we are in great shape. I think this is especially important
> > > when you hike with kids. They feel temp changes, wetness, cold, and
> > > always hunger worse than adults. We keep a spare sweatshirt, my
> > size
> > > its o.k. if its huge and warm on him. Dried fruit, trail mix ,fruit
> > > by the foot snacks are all great in the backpack. I have a full
> > first
> > > aid kit which was a gift from my daughter. Wouldn't you know the
> > > first hike with it one of the kids fell and got scraped up. We had
> > > clean bandaged knees in no time and the patient loved holding the
> > > kits and seeing all the cool stuff inside while I fixed the knees.
> > > The cell phone and kids knowing how to use it are great too.
> > > Of course I carry things for letterbox firstaid too, spare bags a
> > box
> > > whatever I have extra at the time.
> > > When I do workshops for kids we always cover the safety side of
> > > letterboxing. Thanks to forester for bringing up the topic again so
> > > we keep it fresh in our mind. Leader of the Pack - Carol
> >
> >
>
> To unsubscribe: mailto:letterbox-usa-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> List info, archives, etc: http://www.letterboxing.org/list.html
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I don't mean to rant but...
Those that try to find as many boxes in one day or weekend that they
can are missing the whole point of letterboxing. I feel it should be
an escape from the day to day RAT race so many of us are in; and I
can't figure out why anyone would turn boxing into a race too. When
I place or search for a box I stop and smell the roses, watch a cloud
float through the sky, a bird soar through the air or just sit and
watch some ants busy at their chores. Quality not quantity is the
slogan for my boxes. I place boxes in places that I've been and want
to lure other to those places to enjoy the surroundings there. As for
anyone that would trek into an unknown enviroment unprepaired would
fall into the category of "natural selection".
That's just my opinion I could be wrong!


P.S. Glenn would you mind if I were to use your disclaimer in my box
clues.

Hi all,
This letter will probably get some of you upset,
but hopefully it will get some of you thinking....
I've been quiet for quite some time now, barely
getting out to hunt for boxes anymore, but manage one
here and there. I guess you could say I fall into the
category of... "when I find the box I find it, it's
out there somewhere...." (see Ray's Dilema.)
I need no disclaimer to tell me that the wood's
are a dangerous place. People have died of
dehydration, starvation, inability-of navagation, and
in the worst case- animal mutilation. People are also
victims of violent crimes on major and not so major
trails. I've been night hiking, snow hiking, rain
hiking, snow at night hiking... even done letterboxes
by kayak... at night also... it's part of the
challenge. I have been blessed with an uncanny sense
of direction and the ability to sniff out boxes that
companions in my party couldnt find. I have an extreme
knowledge of woods- wisdom (moss doesnt always grow on
the north side of a tree). "The Ram" can attest to all
this, as he is my usual LB companion.
I guess what it all boils down to is this: Expect
the worst and hope for the best. If a clue doesnt give
milage, plan for a major hike. You're a fool if you go
hiking in any terrain with sandals on and an even
bigger fool if you don't have water to drink. Bring
more than you think you need, because your right..
you're going to need it. I've been "brainwashed" by a
fraternal organization for the last 20 or so years to
think... "Be Prepared"
In this day and age we find people trying to shift
blame for their own actions, finding fault with clues
written by other people and blamming them for getting
you "lost". If the clue isn't clear, I don't/won't
follow it! And if I do get lost following a clue, I
figure it's just that much more of this great country
that I have seen that I might not have seen, if I
hadn't gotten lost.
So remember, the blame lies solely upon yourself
for your actions, assume some responsiblity for the
times, when your inexperience gets you lost.... or
hurt. I've been both cold and wet on more than one
camping trip to realize that the equipment I had wasnt
what I needed. Remember this: Be Prepared for your own
inexperience, because after you've done something
once... you've now gained that experience; you know
what to expect, next time.
And by the way... a survival-first aid kit, is a
good first step for assuming self responsibilty. It is
a very good start to a safe letterboxing trip.
Enjoy the next time you're out in the woods, day or
night!

"Bulldog"
Chip & Angus


=====
"The memories of a man in his old age,
are the deeds of a man in his prime."

R. Waters 1968

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Be careful Steve. What is relaxing for you may not be enough to unwind for
others. That competitive spirit is hard to squelch in some folks and that IS
their escape. Go figure but it somehow works for them.

My attraction to letterboxing is the same as your. Go slow and sit on my
butt and watch the world and nature go by, move a short distance and repeat.
It is a rigorous pace, I know! I used to backpack many years ago but quick
when my back gave out. I enjoy bird watching and letterboxing just gives me
a reason to visit more places. I am placing boxes in or near my favorite
places in Tacoma, only two so far. I'm really new, been out twice so far
and found 3 boxes. The two at one time were placed near by and we drove 150+
miles to find them.

Different strokes for different folks.


Glenn

P.S. Of course you can use my disclaimer. :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 4:27 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: Here here to Safety


> I don't mean to rant but...
> Those that try to find as many boxes in one day or weekend that they
> can are missing the whole point of letterboxing. I feel it should be
> an escape from the day to day RAT race so many of us are in; and I
> can't figure out why anyone would turn boxing into a race too. When
> I place or search for a box I stop and smell the roses, watch a cloud
> float through the sky, a bird soar through the air or just sit and
> watch some ants busy at their chores. Quality not quantity is the
> slogan for my boxes. I place boxes in places that I've been and want
> to lure other to those places to enjoy the surroundings there. As for
> anyone that would trek into an unknown enviroment unprepaired would
> fall into the category of "natural selection".
> That's just my opinion I could be wrong!
>
>
> P.S. Glenn would you mind if I were to use your disclaimer in my box
> clues.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> You're still not getting my point! How can you guarantee that
> everyone who pulls clues off the internet has one of your workshops
> under their belt. Everyone keeps talking about their own personal
> safety procedures and that's great, but you're missing what I'm
> getting at.

I think we get your point... But it all boils down to "I cannot
hold the hand of every self-proclaimed outdoorsman on the planet".
We post disclaimers, warnings, try to indicate dangerous conditions
as well as possible. How much more can we do? It would kinda
take the fun out of it if we needed to personally escort each
searcher to our boxes (and imagine how busy the Drews would find
themselves! ).


> There's no qualifications to go letterboxing. There's nothing to
> stop a totally inexperienced person who basically doesn't know enough
> to realize how little he knows from striking out, printout in hand,
> into the woods and a situation he can't handle.

Omitting my personal preference for "applied Darwinism" in such
cases, we simply have no control whatsoever over the situation
you describe. I agree it may exist as a very real possibility;
a person might also decide they can jump out of a speeding car
to no ill effect, "like in the movies". They can try to jump
off their roof with a bed-sheet as a parachute. They can try
crossing six lanes of traffic during rush-hour. People have to
live their own lives, no one else can do it for them.

Shall we abandon our hobby out of fear that some morons less
safety-conscious than ourselves might get hurt? SCREW 'EM!
I've gotten lost in the woods a few times. I've even felt
*really* pissed for a few hours at various clue-providers for
not clearly indicating the way out of the woods. But in each
and every case, do you know who I had to blame for getting lost?
Only myself. Every single time I've gotten lost, it resuted
from me getting lazy. I didn't bring a map ("Only a half-hour
stroll!"), didn't mark my starting position ("Well, I saw a
stream on our left..."), didn't bring enough food/water and just
got too tired to think straight ("Only a half-hour stroll!" ),
or some similar really stupid error. In a more dangerous climate
than southern New England, yes, i might even have ended up a
snack for some larger critter. But I would *STILL* have had
only myself to blame for it.

My concern in this matter extends as far as providing a
disclaimer (and doing my best to write "decent" clues, of
course).


> Why do you think that product labels are so packed with
> instruction and warnings.

The same reason we have mandatory seat-belt laws, and people
getting rich by spilling unlabelled hot beverages on themselves,
and people with the ever-ready cry of "poor me, the innocent
victim" poised at the edge of their lips.

CYA, and let people do as they will.



- Ben of RIBNAG